MIDI Hub Potential for Pattern Change

Midihub
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Hello all!

A friend told me about MIDI Hub and said it could potentially solve a problem I’m currently having with some drum machines.

Here’s what I’m wondering. I really love Roland drum machines but some of the pattern change commands are limited. For my current project I’m playing a bass guitar and need my hands so I must trigger drums via footswitch (Nektar Pacer).

I love the Roland Tr-8S but there’s a manufacturer’s flaw. The patterns do not change seamlessly in sequence (either starting immediately when triggered or skipping one step). I’ve searched everywhere and yet to find anyone who found a solution or decent workaround.

Could MIDIhub
A: Somehow override this faulty MIDI command on the TR-8S so the patterns change seamlessly in sequence.

B: Assign pattern change commands to other Roland drum machines/Behringer clones that do not natively support pattern change via MIDI?

I really appreciate your feedback and insight.

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Hey, @Jordan99098, It would be useful to have some more precise detail about what behaviour you want Midihub to perform based on some foot-based message:

(Midihub might be able to solve your problem but it would be useful to sure before you actually buy one!)

From…

either starting immediately when triggered or skipping one step

…it sounds like you want MH to know when to send TR-8S a “pattern change” after being primed by some input.

Some Questions:

  • What messages is Nektar Pacer capable of sending & can it connect to Midihub?

  • If Midihub is to act in sync with other devices, what is sending Clock (and maybe Transport messages) to Midihub?

  • What message triggers a TR-8S “pattern change”?

    Is it a Program Change so we need to specify which pattern to go to next?
    Or can TR-8S hold a pattern “set-list” so we can just tell it “Next” at the right time?

  • Does TR-8S send out anything else useful at the end of each “pattern”?

If you can provide some of this info, a user or Blokas themselves might be able to mock up a ‘solution’ so you can see whether Midihub might fit your needs.

Welcome to Midihub forum, btw!

EDIT: this discussion hints at some answers to my questions, but I don’t have a TR8-S (or Pacer) to check…

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Thanks for your prompt response. I apologize for not being so thorough with my questions

The Nectar Pacer can send CC, PC and SysEx messages. It doesn’t have its own MIDI clock so I have a 606 drum machine with a mid thru that I’m using as a dedicated clock between the Nectar Pacer and the TR-8S.

The TR-8S has limited PC abilities via MIDI. It simply has 127 patterns and accepts numerical PC commands corresponding from 0-127 to trigger them. It also has Real Time start/stop/continue. When using directly (not through MIDI) you can of course change patterns and banks seamlessly.

Although I would like to toggle patterns (proceed forward/previous), it’s acceptable to assign specific patterns to foot switches (I can do this currently).

The problem is that when the TR-8S receives the PC command to change patterns it doesn’t respect the master MIDI clock and triggers immediately mid sequence, some users report that with other controllers, it skips a step or omits part of a sequence. Without using MIDI, it waits until the end of the sequence before transitioning to the next desired pattern and respects the clock and changes patterns seamlessly.

I’ve looked extensively through every Reddit, Gearspace, Roland Clan, Morning Star etc. thread related to the TR-8S MIDI functions and it seems that no one has been able to make it trigger properly via MIDI - to simply transition from pattern 1 to pattern 2 (for example) at the end of the sequence without skipping steps or starting the 2nd sequence immediately.

This has been a problem since the unit was released, users expected Roland would solve this with a firmware update but they haven’t addressed it nor fixed it so the assumption is that it’s a bug which occurs between receiving the MIDI and performing the PC command.

In all other scenarios the MIDI clock is respected (changing bpm, start, stop, continue). In all other scenarios the PC pattern change commands are respected (Using switch A to trigger pattern 1, switch B to trigger pattern 2 etc).

The TR-8S has the same MIDI functionality with its MIDI out and is said to perform these operations correctly via MIDI when it is the master (ie. other sequencers change smoothly when being slaved by the TR-8S).

If anyone can find a workaround for this it could be quite useful because I’ve come across numerous people who sold the unit due to this problem (including the person who sold me mine from Reverb).

Here’s a PDF of the MID implementation chart as well:

Please let me know if anything is not clear and thanks again for your concern and response.

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Thx for the extra detail.

without skipping steps

Yeah, I read that it often loses the first kick of the bar, which is less than useful!

Now, if we have…

  • 606 → (clock) → Midihub → TR-8S

  • TR-8S → (TRANSPORT) → Midihub

  • and you’re keeping to the same measures (eg. 4/4)

…then we might be able to have TR-8S start a 1/4 note period LFO so that when MH picks up a Pacer PC message it “stores” it ready for sending it TR-8S at a specified point in the LFO cycle.
(It’s a tad more tricky than that but that’s for later)

I suspect it’s going to be a micro-timing issue to ensure it’s really useful, so I think it would be useful to find an TR-8S owner with a Midihub to test it out!
(We could make a quasi-attempt with a midifile, maybe message me about this and I’ll take a look later today)

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I just tried what you suggested with my DAW (both Reason and also Ableton) but I still wasn’t able to do it successfully. I’ve used a lot of MIDI instruments in conjunction with a DAW and I think it’s related to the drivers not working with this recent update for my OS (Mac user). TBH at this point I’ve invested so much time with this TR-8S that I’m nearly ready to throw it out the window.

I’m still interested in a MIDI Hub though and because of your excellent customer service maybe I will get one because perhaps there’s an alternative. If you are able to find a user to test it on their TR-8S I will refrain from throwing mine out the window otherwise I might just cut my losses and sell it.

Essentially I just need either a drum machine or sequencer than can smoothly respond to PC commands to change or toggle patterns via MIDI so my hands can freely play bass guitar in this new band.

According to the specs, many devices should do this but in real life I’ve tried the Korg Electribe, Novation Circuit Tracks and now the TR-8S and they all have some quirks related to occasional random latency or glitches as seen in first hand experience as well as from other users. This new project is improv based with live instruments so in this case I can’t afford to have this randomly happen.

Could I use MIDI Hub to create program changes for changing patterns on units that don’t natively do it? For example with something like a Alesis SR18, Akai SR20, or even an SP-404 - it doesn’t have to be a particularly sexy unit.

From what I can tell an Elektron or Octatrack can handle pattern changes without issue but I’d rather not have a $1000+ at some of these bar gigs. Thanks once again for your immediate response and excellent customer service!

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Yep, @Jordan99098, I hear you.
Some devices seem built on the assumption that you’re going to be hands-on triggering patterns.
(Elektron probably worked from the bottom up getting their machines to play nicely together)

As a result, any Midihub solution is always going to be in “work-around” category; getting MH to fire off a PC at roughly the right time then tweaking it until the transitions sound seamless.

here's one way it might work...

trigger in measure
trigger in measure4661×2186 392 KB

…where we use MH’s Delay pipe to pause a note fired near the end of a bar for a few milliseconds so it arrives at the TR at just the right time.

This obviously would involve a fair bit of “Adjust - Listen - Adjust” to (hopefully) get it to work

The potential pitfall with a solution like the above is that it might start to fall apart as soon as you, say, change a BPM.

As far as Midihub + TR-8S owners, it’s been mentioned a few times in the forums.
If you want to give it a go, I’ll message owners to find out whether they’d be willing to spend a little time testing a patch that’ll take me about an hour to write and document.

I’m just a user, but you will find very good support from the small team that are @Blokas!

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You responded so quickly that I just assumed you were an admin or something. I feel like one of those people who assume another customer is actually an employee and starts bombarding them with questions yet they still respond politely :joy:

Hmm, the TR-8S has a tempo nudge feature but I’m pretty confident we won’t be changing BPM at least mid song… or did you mean there would need to be different configurations for each BPM?

I really appreciate the help, it’s over and beyond what a typical forum user would be expected so I’m going to message you and see if you’ll accept some kind of donation for being exceptionally kind and helpful.

Like I mentioned, this is a common problem with the Korg Electribe, and Circuit Tracks/Rhythm as well a with other devices. If there is a solution to eliminate these particular type of pattern change inconsistencies then I think it would be very helpful for a lot of people.

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I couldn’t find a way to DM but if you want to write a patch and someone wants to test it I can send a little something your way as a gesture of good will because I know it takes a lot of time and effort to do this.

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click on a users icon in a thread and you’ll see this

Sending a Message
Sending a Message630×548 90 KB

When you click “Message” it’ll start up a DM/PM with a ref to that post.

did you mean there would need to be different configurations for each BPM?

Possibly…
…but it’s one of those things that you only find out by testing. As usual, there may be workarounds – it’s all in the ear of the beholder!

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Unfortunately that button isn’t visible to me. I think it’s because I don’t have enough user flair yet.

Can you try to message me instead? If possible I would like to just first workout some small compensation for you and this potential Midihub TR-8S user who gets randomly summoned right during the holidays regardless of how successful the outcome is.

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didn’t know that.
PM sent

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Me neither, just in case, I increased @Jordan99098 user level. :slight_smile:

1 Like